KBS Tour Shafts

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Scott Rushing
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KBS Tour Shafts

So was at the PGA Superstore yesterday and there was a used set of irons from Cobra, looked like the original AMP irons Fowler played.  Anyway, they had MBS Tour shafts in them.  I had hit a AP2 Titleist 7I earlier, and a few drivers/3w's, but wasn't hitting very well overall. Stiff back etc.  Anyway, I hit that 7i with the KBS shaft and hit 3 bueatiful shots, high, straight, and long.  Thing I noticed about them was they felt heavy.  The shafts unfortunately didn't have much on them in the way of specs other than the name and stiffness, but they just felt a lot heavier.  Might take one of my old clubs and get one of those and see if I can tell any difference. 

scomac
scomac's picture
I remember a number of years

I remember a number of years ago hitting some Scratch wedges at a demo day that came from the factory with KBS Tour shafts.  The weight and balance seemed pretty similar to the Nike wedges I had equipped with TTDG shafts.  The real difference came in the hitting.  I remember the KBS shafts felt rebar-like stiff versus the Dynamic Golds and very harsh in comparison.  From what I could gather the bend profile was quite a bit different from the KBS to the DG shafts with the KBS being noticably stiffer in the tip.  They were a non-starter fo me based on feel alone as I found it very off-putting.  To this day I've always steared clear of KBS shafted clubs.

Scott Rushing
Scott Rushing's picture
THat's interesting Sco....for

THat's interesting Sco....for me, I could feel the weight difference but results wise, it was really nice.  Now 3 swings does not a serious test make but given how bad I was hitting that day, it was a surprise.   I didn't notice anything peculiar or harsh about the feel though.

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DON
KBS are Good shafts

I have a set of irons with the KBS shafts in them and they are very good shafts for sure. Some of the Tour pros are playing those shaft with great success today. You might want to go to the KBS site and look up the specs on the Tour model in stiff to get the details on them. I would think they might be a great deal if the price for the used irons in good. IF those shafts are NOT factory options, then they might have been Spine and SLO aligned before they were installed in the Cobra heads as an after market change out. If I remember right, those KBS Tour shafts cost about $32.00 each, so the shafts could be worth the price of buying the set of irons. I did that a few years ago. I found a set of Forged Cobra irons with Riflte Flighted shafts in the heads for Less then the cost of the shafts alone.

Don

Putting is easy if you have the Right Putter.

scomac
scomac's picture
Some of the Tour pros are

Some of the Tour pros are playing those shaft with great success today

That explains it; I'm not a tour pro.  No wonder I thought they were aweful, far too much shaft for me!  laugh 

AS an aside, I was in Golftown this afternoon looking at wedges.  I've more or less narrowed my search down to Ping Glides or Callaway MD3's based on weight, balance and set-up behind the ball.  You pretty much have to hit them outdoors to get a good idea of how they will play across a variety of shots, so I'm waiting for a fair weather demo day, next month perhaps.

One club I won't be demoing is the Callaway MD3 Phil Mickelson Grind because it comes from the factory with a KBS Tour instead of the TTDG that comes in the conventional grind MD3's.  I don't think they're overly popular either because they only had two right hand and one left hand PM grind wedges in the display whereas they had several of the conventional grind MD3's in a variety of grinds across different lofts.

DON
Phil plays a 64* wedge so

Phil plays a 64* wedge so that may be the reason they don't have a lot of them in the store, not too many golfers can play a 64* wedge with any kind of success. I know that when I built me a 64* wedge that was the same head as my 60* wedge, I had to work a lot harder at the practice area to get good results with the 64*. The extra loft just seems to remove a lot of the Margin of Errot out of the wedge, and I had to practice with it a lot more to get it to work for me. About TWICE as much practice time was needed in my case.

Don

Putting is easy if you have the Right Putter.

Scott Rushing
Scott Rushing's picture
I used to use a 64degree,

I used to use a 64degree, even before Phil was...it's the brainchild of Dave Pelz, and years ago I went to one of his clinics and that was what was being taught was that you need an "X" wedge, that 64degree wedge for some shots.  I used it a ton just off the green.  I rarely swung it full swing and it would only go about 60 yards when I did.  But once I had to go over a bush that my ball was close too and with that I was able to .  But I've retired it (for now) and my max loft wedge now is a 58.

 

 

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Scott Rushing
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Don

Don

I'm thinking about buying a used Callaway Big Bertha Aplpha 815 driver...it's got a Fujikura Motore Speeder 565 Graphite Stiff Flex shaft in it.  My current cobra driver, which I hit pretty well now, I reshafted with an Aldila NV 65 gram shaft, also stiff.  that shaft is a higher launching shaft which is what I wanted.  I currently play the driver at 11.5degrees, plus that shaft, I get a nice trajectory.

So I'm figuring that the shaft in the Callawy is a cheap shaft and I'll want to reshaft it as well.   By default i might go with the same one I like now, but just curious if you have thoughts or suggestions on others to try?  I was thinking about the OBAN Devition.  The 5 series is mid/high on both launch and spin.  The Callaway head is a low spin head.  The 6 series Oban is low/mid on launch and spin...

I don't want to go much heavier but it looks like the Fujikura might be a 56g shaft.  PLus I'd want to cut it down ... it's 46" and I want 45.25...

 

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Scott Rushing
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So the odd thing, as i read

So the odd thing, as i read reviews and  details about the Aldila shaft I have now is that everything seems to suggest it's a low trajectory low spin shaft...But i am positive when I went into Golf Galaxy and asked about a shaft that would let me hit the ball higher with the driver, he said to order this one, which I did.  I've been happier with it but now I'm wondering if it really is higher.  I think it's higher...I still have the old shaft...so I will be going to the range with both and testing.  Maybe it's higher than the shaft I had before but still low.  I don't know...

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cac
cac's picture
Do you change your shaft

Do you change your shaft yourself Scott or the pro. Is you then how easy is it. I've changed grips in my time but never a shaft.

How would I know that I would be suited to a shaft other than fit it and try it..

Are certain shafts suited to certain swing speeds or not. Cac

cac handed Geordie.

Scott Rushing
Scott Rushing's picture
Cac,

Cac,

No, I don't change my shaft myself, I let the Pro or local golf store do it.  I may in the future get into doing that when I retire since I hopefully will have more time to tinker with them but for now, I don't.

Your next question is the difficult part of being an average hack without unlimited access to gear and people to build it.  What I've learned is that the stock shaft that comes in our drivers we buy tend to be cheap versions of high quality shafts.  So they perform OK (at best), but not great and aren't always what they say.  I bought a stiff shafted driver that was like X-stiff really and not what I needed.  The "real" shafts, aftermarket shafts - that you pay say $50, $75, $200 for - are much better quality, more consistent and better performing shafts. 

Problem is with soooooo many shafts how do you find one that's good for you?  My answer is go to a fitter and let him put you in different shafts on a head and see how your shot data changes.   I did that and was told I'd do better with a higher-launching shaft.  So that's what I search for.  Also check your local clubs/ranges for DEMO Days.  Some of those will have launch monitors so you can see what works better. That's free....

They make shafts to reduce spin, others to increase launch, others to hit straighter.  If your driver has a stock shaft in it, it's probably one made to "spec" and for about $10, whereas the "real" shaft probably costs $175.  And the other thing is shaft weight..do you like lighter, do you like heavier. 

I like how i hit the Aldila shaft I put in my driver last year, and the fitter talked highly of the OBAN shafts, but OBANs are like $200 each.  The Aldila I can get for $44.  So I'll go that way if I get another one re-shafted.  within Aldila, they have like 3 lines of shafts (VS proto, Nvs and Dvs) that have mid or high launch angles.  So that helped me narrow down there.  But I don't want HIGH launch so I'll try the Aldila VS proto IF i get something. 

Again, getting to a fitter is key,  where you can pay him $50 or so to do a drvier fitting and try heavier shafts, lighter shafts, more stiff shafts, higher launch shafts, low spin shafts, etc.  Only go to one who has the gear to give you real numbers off the launch monitors though.  you need data (to me) and need to be able to see how it changes. 

Ok, I'll add to my answer above. if possible, .build a relationship with a fitter don't just go to one.  If that's possible, I'd say making a "friend"  with one, stick with him, like that where you could go by and hit stuff, try different things, they learn your swing, etc. 

If I lived near Don, he'd be my best friend since he has all the gear to help me try these things :)  Ha!

 

 

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cac
cac's picture
Great answer, very

Great answer, very informative. Cac

cac handed Geordie.

cac
cac's picture
After reading about spine

After reading about spine angles in shafts, I looked at my current driver. A Cleveland xls highbore 10.5 deg. I put the grip in a vice the gave the head a tweak and see what direction the head wants to resonate. My club seemed to resonate at 90 deg to the swing plane, rather than on the swing plane. What is the consequence of this as it seems to work OK. Cac.

cac handed Geordie.

DON
You are correct about the

You are correct about the NV65 shaft, it IS a LOW launch shaft. NOT a high launch as you were told when you ordered it. I have a few of them and had one in my SnakeEyes 600TC driver which is 12* loft. It's a pretty good shaft, especially for the low cost of the shaft. You might want to check out the UST VTS shaft in XS flex. They make them in R, S XS and X, The XS is NOT Extra stiff, that's the X flex, The XS is BETWEEN the S and X flex, and is rated at around 105 or so MPH swing speed, You can find them online currently for arould $110 and it's an excellent shaft. I have the 75 gram version in X flex in one of my drivers and it's very good. I had a customer try that driver and he had be build him a driver with the same head, and the S flex shaft of the same weight. They are also available in THREE torgue ratings. I ALWAYS get the version with the LOWEST torgue rating, which is the Black model. I stilll have the NV65 R flex shaft that I pulled from that 12* driver and I'm saving it for when I get OLD and have to go back to an R flex shaft. I might have to go back sonner than I expected after my recent heart attack. Last time I hit driver at the range my swing speed was DOWN a good 10-15 MPH, so I need to do some more testing in a week or so to see if my lose of speed is just for now, or if it's going to be long term lose.

Don

Putting is easy if you have the Right Putter.

DON
Changing shats????

CAC;; changing out shafts is NOT all that hard of a job. You need a good Shaft Puller to remove the old shaft from the head or hosel adapter. Then you need to clean out the hosel of any left over epoxy, and clean up the tip end of the shaft so the new epoxy bonds well. Then you cut the end of the shaft to length and install a new grip. that's about it for a BASIC shaft change.

The thing is this will NOT get you the BEST performance from the new shaft. Ot get the best performance from ANY shaft, be it the OEM shaft or a good after market shaft, you NEED to do a Spine and FLO alignment on the shaft, before you install it in the head. That requires two more tools you would need to get. First would be a Spine Finder to locate the spine and NBP of the shaft. Then you wourl need to get a FLO weight with a built in Laser, so you can get the shaft to FLO properly. When the shaft is properly FLO aligned it will KICK down the target line, and NOT off to one side or the other as the head comes into contact with the ball. If you do NOT FLO align the shaft, the shaft might kick off to the right one time and off to the left the next time, so you will be hitting the ball just about any thing but down the target line. NOT a good thing for any club, expecially with the driver as that could make you miss a lot more fairways then you'd like. IF you don't want to buy the tools to do the Spine and FLO alignment on a shaft, you cuuld have SST Puring do the work for you. They do an excellent job but it is expensive if you have them do more than just one shaft. You can buy the tools to do ALL your shafts for what they charge you to do just a few shafts. IF you are interested in buying a good Spine Finder and FLO weight/Laser, let me know as I build them and sell them to other club makers.

Don

Putting is easy if you have the Right Putter.

DON
Slice or Hook may not be your fault

For the record, the shaft CAN be the cause of a golfer hitting a slice or a hook. It all depends on HOW the spine is aligned in the head of the club. NO OEM currently takes the time or effort to do a Spine and FLO alignment on the shafts they install in all of their clubs, so you never know how any OEM club will perform until you HIT it yourselt and find out. Truth it that a mis- aligned shaft CAN cause a golfer to hit a slcie or a draw depending on how the spine is aligned in the head. Set the spine to align off to the right or left of the target line, and you have a built in sloce or hook just waiting for the golfer to swing the club. And do NOT expect Consistant ball contact near the center of the club fade, if the shaft is NOT properly aligned in the head. There really is a good reason that tour pros do NOT play off the rack clubs, and it's mostly due to the shafts in OEM clubs being NOT properly aligned.

Don

Putting is easy if you have the Right Putter.

cac
cac's picture
Don, what is the purpose of

Don, what is the purpose of getting the spine line as when the  direction of resonance (flo ) is obseved the spine line is ignored. Or have I got this wrong ? CAC.

cac handed Geordie.

DON
CAC; FLO stands for Flat Line

CAC; FLO stands for Flat Line Oscillation. The idea is the get the shaft to bend back and forward in a Straight line, Down the target line when you hit the ball. The shaft will BEND backwards during the down swing, as you LOAD the shaft. What you want is for the shaft to KICK back, or UN-BEND just as the head of the club is coming into impact with the ball. And you want the shaft to KICk Down the target line, NOT off to one side or the other, Down the Target line. This is what a properly FLO aligned shaft will do for the golfer, it will Kick down the target line. This will give you more consistant Center Face contact with the clubface and the ball, which translates to More distance and Straighter ball flight and more fairways hit.

I do NOT ignore the spine of the shaft when I FLO the shaft. I use the Spine to get the shaft to play either as stiff or as Solt as possible for that shaft. I also USE the spine location as my "Starting Position" for the FLO testing. Then I FLO the shaft, starting with the Spine or the NBP aligned down the target line, From this "Starting" position, I will do the FLO testing to get the shaft to oscillate in a straight line. Bottom line is that the Spine "Will" most likely be rotated a "FEW degrees" one way or the other OFF of directly down the target line. The FLO is almost always within a few degrees of the Spine and NBP alignment I get with the Spine Finder. You can think of the FLO alignment as being a "Fine Tuneing" adjustment of the Spine alignment. I hope this clears up any mis-understandying you may have had. If not let me know and I'll try to explain it better if I can.

Don

Putting is easy if you have the Right Putter.

cac
cac's picture
Very clear Don.  This shaft

Very clear Don.  This shaft stuff is a whole new world opening up. I have never ever chosen a shaft on any club. I've never known what stiffness of shaft would suit me and never till about 1 month ago knew my swing speed. Is different firms stiffnesses don't correspond to other firms stiffnesses, how does someone like me choose the best shaft ? Or is it trial and error? Cac

cac handed Geordie.

DON
I'd recommend that you go to

I'd recommend that you go to one of the major after market shaft company website. Most sites will give you a "Recommend" Swing speed range for each of their shaft models. Each shaft may be DIFFERENT. One shaft may have a swing speed listed for a S flex as 100-110, while another shaft may be rated as 105-115. Your job will be to Measure your swing speed Accurately and go my your MPH numbers. And you also have to figure in if you have a FAST tempo or a SLOW one. The faster your tempo and stiffer the shaft will need to be so you do NOT overload it. I might want to ask a good instructor of club fitter to look at your swing and tell you if you are fast or slow in terms of Tempo.

Don

Putting is easy if you have the Right Putter.